Charge Attacks and Tricks and Traps

[Merzain]

If a character like Baron Zemo charges with the intention of using a 0 cost attack into range of only a character like Mysterio who uses Tricks and Traps to move away from the character before they can attack, if the attacking character has another attack with a longer range that costs power that the moving character is in range of, is the attacking character forced to use that attack, or can they forfeit the attack action portion of Charge?

[Thoras]

If the character is capable of making an attack, they are required to do so, yes.

[Hawkeye_]

I don’t understand this ruling the way it’s worded. In this example, what is stopping Zemo from selecting his 0-cost attack in Attack Sequence Step 1, and then when declaring a target in Step 2, since none are in range the attack action fails? He still attempted to make an attack, it just had no eligible targets.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Hawkeye_
Grammar

[Thoras]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye_ said:

I don’t understand this ruling the way it’s worded. In this example, what is stopping Zemo from selecting his 0-cost attack in Attack Sequence Step 1, and then when declaring a target in Step 2, since none are in range the attack action fails? He still attempted to make an attack, it just had no eligible targets.

On page 18, the bolded section of “making an attack” explains that you can’t even attempt to make an attack without a target.  This means you need to know there is an eligible target ahead of time.

[Cocde]

On 2/21/2023 at 7:34 PM, Thoras said:

On page 18, the bolded section of “making an attack” explains that you can’t even attempt to make an attack without a target.  This means you need to know there is an eligible target ahead of time.

Directly above that quote it states the requirements to "target" a character and only mentions line of sight. Also in the timing chart step 2c specifically calls out what happens if a "targeted character" is out of range for an attack being made.

Quote

Page 18 "When a character uses an attack action, it chooses one of the attacks listed on its stat card to use and an enemy character in line of sight (LOS) to target with the attack" 

And timing chart states that range is measured post target selection.

[Thoras]

7 hours ago, Cocde said:

Directly above that quote it states the requirements to "target" a character and only mentions line of sight. Also in the timing chart step 2c specifically calls out what happens if a "targeted character" is out of range for an attack being made.

And timing chart states that range is measured post target selection.

The first paragraph isn't describing what it means to target something so much as beginning the explanation of making an attack.

Step 2c describes what happens if a character happens to be out of range at that point in the sequence, but doesn't preclude it from having to be in range earlier.

The last portion of the third paragraph in the page 18 section describes things in more detail

Quote

An enemy character must be in the attacker's line of sight and within the range of the attack in order to be the target of the attack. If the chosen enemy isn't in range or LOS, it can't be targeted by the attack.

 

[Cocde]

2 hours ago, Thoras said:

The last portion of the third paragraph in the page 18 section describes things in more detail

I see what you're rendering to but I still don't think that means that an attack MUST be made. 

That paragraph is saying if there is no target an attack cannot be made. Charge states an attack action must be made but not that the action must be completed.

If the timing chart for making an attack is followed then when step 2 resolves the attack action is made it just ends in step 2cii.

Essentially I'm saying an attack action was attempted due to charge requiring one and ended early because the attacker was unable to target any character within line of sight, and the only way an attack isn't attempted at all is if there are no characters within LOS at the end of the move.

Also on page 19, let's say that a character in step one pays power for an attack then measures range for the attack as outlined, the attack could still fail in step 2 when no one is in range and the power spent woukd still be spent. We typically pre measure in the game to prevent this but the rules don't measure until step 2 after power is paid and the attack is attempted.

A better way to more simply put my argument is this

Charge says "move action followed by an attack action" 

When a character makes an attack they would do

step 1, choose attack, pay for power

Step 2 attempt* to declare a target 

If 2a met procede to 2b, if 2b fails move to 2c, choose 2ci or 2cii. 

At no point does any step force the player to go back and choose an attack with correct range, nor does anything force a player to spend power on an attack they don't want to use

[Thoras]

I understand the points your making, but they largely don't apply unfortunately.

You are forced to check that you have an eligible target for the attack before even entering the attack sequence for that attack. See this post as another example of this ruling -

 

[Ratner]

What if in the original scenario with Zemo charging Mysterio and the he moved out of ranged 2, and Zemo didnt have the power for his spender BUT the player had No Matter the Cost, would the player be forced to play the TTC to perform the attack?

[Thoras]

1 hour ago, Ratner said:

What if in the original scenario with Zemo charging Mysterio and the he moved out of ranged 2, and Zemo didnt have the power for his spender BUT the player had No Matter the Cost, would the player be forced to play the TTC to perform the attack?

No

[Cocde]

On 3/6/2023 at 8:11 AM, Thoras said:

You are forced to check that you have an eligible target for the attack before even entering the attack sequence for that attack. See this post as another example of this ruling

As per the timing charts on both page 19 and 25 range is not measured until after power for an attack is spent. Page 19 it is measured in the second half of step 1 "the attacker then uses the range tool"  after power is spent for an attack, and page 25 it is measured in step 2. Will this be fixed in future? Because your ruling implies that when making an attack a player should preform the attack sequence out of order, starting in step 2, then reverting to step 1 then proceeding to step 3

[Cocde]

Edit for the previous response. Technically power is not spent in step 1, step 1 only checks if the power is available to be spent. The main point is still that the revised steps should be step 2 (declare a target) step 1 (choose an attack) step 3 (pay power for the attack chosen) 

According to your rulings step 1 cannot be preformed without checking step 2 first and this seems like an oversight. 

[Thoras]

10 hours ago, Cocde said:

As per the timing charts on both page 19 and 25 range is not measured until after power for an attack is spent. Page 19 it is measured in the second half of step 1 "the attacker then uses the range tool"  after power is spent for an attack, and page 25 it is measured in step 2. Will this be fixed in future? Because your ruling implies that when making an attack a player should preform the attack sequence out of order, starting in step 2, then reverting to step 1 then proceeding to step 3

10 hours ago, Cocde said:

Edit for the previous response. Technically power is not spent in step 1, step 1 only checks if the power is available to be spent. The main point is still that the revised steps should be step 2 (declare a target) step 1 (choose an attack) step 3 (pay power for the attack chosen) 

According to your rulings step 1 cannot be preformed without checking step 2 first and this seems like an oversight. 

I believe you may have missed that I've said this is a requirement that is checked before you can start the attack and as such, there are no changes to the attack sequence required. Being required to check it ahead of time does not preclude it from being checked again during the attack sequence.